need help:building a big duke/big chief motor
 

Post subject: building a big duke/big chief motor

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I'm building a big cubic inch motor and wanted to know if the brodix 18 degree heads are any good. I have a dart square port big chief tunnel ram with two 1150's and was wanting to know if I should run brodix or dart heads. If I use dart heads they make 14 degree heads that would also work with this intake, can anyone tell me which way I should go. This is a drag radial car. The intake is also drilled for a fogger system. Thanks

I think this is going to be the sky's the limit when you start talking wanting to go 14 degree over a 18 degree head there is a big difference. I've both the brodix and the dart head in action and both work very well.

I'd choose the Dart 14* before I used a Brodix head for a NOS engine, ..

square port stuff is fine for heavy NOS use, .. ..

Are you looking for an as cast head or fully cnc ported?

what size engine?

Curtis

It's a 632 looking to run about 14:1 comp. so I don't know I guess I should do a cnc ported head. I want it to run good on motor too.

Listen to the man. Trust me he knows his stuff. Mr. Curtis did the 18* 1803 Brodix heads on mine and I made the same power as some of the sonnys 14* headed stuff :shock: He will do you right..

I spoke with Pat ay nye's automotive and he said to use the dart 18* because I do plan on doing a little street driving (cruise nights) and he said that 14* heads do not work well on the street. I guess sinse he is building the motor I will take his advise. Thanks for all the help

What about the new Edelbrock head? I'm soon to start building a (single carb, 14.5+ comp, gas, no nos) 632. The edlebrock head advertises 475+ cfm, 1200hp capable which is all you can get out of a single 4500 carb anyway.
Or should I go to an 18 or 14* head with 540+cfm? I'm looking for absolute max hp and torque @ 6400 and above.
BTW, i had a set of world procucts heads cnc'd by race flow and they were pretty impressive!!

Thanks
Rabbit

http://www.myspace.com/rabbitmudracing

Smart thinking. ;)

Ed

Hi Rabbit,
Have I talked with you on the phone about another matter? Just curious, I am the guy building the Unpredictable Pro Mud engines with Randy Roberts and he had one of his buddies with a truck call me on the phone a few weeks ago about an issue he was having with his truck. Wondered if you are the same guy. ;)

Fill me in some more on these please? I haven't heard of them yet. Unless maybe you are talking about the all out modified 24 deg that Curtis Boggs is doing for Texas Pro Stock Racing? I have a set of his out of the box RFD CNC Ported Edlebrock 24 degree that we angle milled down to a 102 cc chamber that I do really really like though.

RFD is definetly the place for good heads and for good custom work too. He woke up a set of 15 deg SB Brodix stuff for us we stuck on Randy's new motor.
www.raceflowdevelopment.com

Ed

Hi Ed.
I don't think it was me, but i've been on the phone alot lately with several different people. If you got some good advise it was me. If it didn't work it wasn't me!! lol.
The edelbrock heads from what several of the machine shops tell me are the best 24* chevy head you can get. The Musi Victor can be worked to flow 475+ which is hard to believe from a 24* head!!
http://www.raceflowdevelopment.com/R...ock-victor.htm
Advertised on the link above on RFD at 475+ with a 2.4 valve capable of 1200 hp which is more than some of the 18* heads. These would be cheaper than changing pistons, intake, rockers, etc. if they're as good as they say!?? and i know the quality of RFD is as good as it gets!
By the rules i run I can only run 1 - 4500 carb, no tunnel rams, or sheet metal intakes . 1200hp is about max outta 1 carb so i'm not sure if I would benefit from the 18* or 14* heads.
Thanks for any advice.
Rabbit

A local shop put the Eldebrocks on the flow bench and put a set of the bb3 oval ports on same bench flow #'s showed higher on the brodix heads.
I am still waiting for him to try these eldebrocks on his motor to see what they do compaired to the others with the brodix heads.

Ok Quickiee Lesson in life.

All Edlebrock 24 degree heads are not created the same except when originally cast. There is only one RFD Edlebrock CNC Head source. It is not from your Edlebrock Distributor or from Musi Racing. It only comes from www.raceflowdevelopment.com

An RFD Curtis Boggs head is not a Pat Musi Edlebrock Head. Not unless Pat or someone sends it to Curtis for mods. Even then it is still not the same head.

There is no way possible in this Earth that a out of the box Brodix head will flow close to what an out of the box RFD Edlebrock will. Forget the Brodix claims. Most are pumped up numbers with no fact. I am disgusted with Brodix out of the box CNC heads and after testing them end up sending brand new customer bought heads to RFD for him to get them to wake up.

The numbers Curtis has on his heads are real and have been verified buy more than one bench across the country. The thing is most engines are better with the lower flowing versions.

Ed

does rfd have an edlebrock head they cnc port for an engine size of about 540 for marine use.

we wont start a "pissing" match but these were RFD Eldebrocks and a set of bb3's worked over by a local boy. They were close but the motor shop figured to see more hp out of the bb3's ... time will tell here soon. They new set of bb3's that have been redone by brodix with some help of a big HP engine shop just made 1180hp @ 582ci this wasnt some 17:1 one motor either, thats single alky carb on a brodix intake.

David,
That is still impressive.

Don't get me wrong, I still like the Brodix Heads. It just irks me that we have to send out brand new heads to pay more money to have work done to get them to flow what Brodix claims. Love their castings though.

The only way to compare anyones out of the box heads is to compare them out of the box, not after a local head porter has steppped all over them. Or after anyone has. Out of the box they way you get them is what I am talking about with the RFD CNC Heads. The other valid comparison is price for what you get. Out of the box with same price as AFR 357 or either BMF 385 or 405. Can't compare with worked heads from any mfg. Not apples to apples.

I have had examples of Brodix CNC done for Brodix according to the wishes of BRodix with BRodix Programs with both WeldTech doing the work and with Keith Craft doing the work and am disappointed in what either shows on the bench.

I have a large network of engine building friends and know a few different well recognised cylinder head porters and some of them are in tight with Brodix, and no one I have spoken with has come close to what Brodix claims the PB 1200 CNC will do. That is supposed to be the biggest, baddest head they have. It is not cheap. BRodix claims 571 cfm Intake. No one I have talked with has ever seen it test to above 530 cfm if that much. Just had a go around with a set of the -12 Brodix WeldTech CNC's. They were down appx 20-24 cfm on Intake and the exhaust was laughingly ridiculas it was so bad. The exhaust just quit gaining at .600 lift. . I sent them to Curtis and he woke them up and now they are making power. That is two very recent examples of Brodix Over pumped Flow numbers.

I agree for sure the newest Brodix seems to finally starting to take turn on not needing to get them worked on but still you pay big $$ and then have to turn around and pay $$ again.

I would only consider RFD's heads and whichever head i use i want to compare both at cnc and max porting. I'm mainly trying to figure out if going to a 14, 18 or 12* head would be worth it for me. Keep in mind this is going in 3600lb mud racing truck that only runs 200'. Don't take that wrong cause every truck in my class is a 621+ BBF (with c heads 2.5 valves) or 632 BBC (big chiefs ) making in the 1050+hp range. Our rules limit us to only 1 carb, no tunnel ram or sheet metal intakes. Because of my rule limits will it be worth the extra cost to go to a 500+ cfm spread port head when the RFD 24* edelbrock heads are capable of 1200hp which is more than 1 carb can make anyway????

Thanks
Rabbit

I have a set of Curtis's 18* Big Duke Oval ports. On a litlle 522ci its at 1050hp at 7400rpm. with a brodix cast intake and a single 1250. In my books ITS WORTH IT!!!. My bosses 600ci w/ 14* sonnys dart heads was only at 1100hp with 2 carbs!!!!!. Now take and add another 100ci to my motor and I think you can do the math as the potental of the RFD heads. After I am done doing some changes I am actually shooting for that 1075-1100 w/ the same ci. Not all head guys are as honest and straight forward as Curtis. I've talked to some in the past and half are full of BS.

It takes ALOT of effort to get BIG numbers out a conv. style head. I think you'll have more coin invested in conv. heads as compared to a spread port for the same amount of money.

I would'nt go any where else except RFD. Like sonnys (not impressed).

I have 2 similiar engines that I am doing like you describe. One is a 598 inch big chief engine, one is a 632. Did one over the winter also, that one was a 598. Because of the money thing, budget, which is an oxymoron with a big chief style engine, but I am using the Dart Pro-1 18 degree castings, that I tune up. Additional porting and re-vised valve job. For the money, its a hard head to beat. Comes partialy cnc ported, chamber is done, and the bowls. They make 1100hp easy. when I say easy, I am not talking 1 inch lift, and 16:1 compression. I am talking 1 carb, 14:1 ish compression, and mid .800 net lift cam.

Nothing against curtis, but I would have to see it to believe it, that those heads would make 1200 hp. They look nice, and I am sure they will make a heck of a lot of power, but 1200hp isn;t exactly easy, even with a spread port head. Possibly with 2 carbs, and a 1 inch+ lift cam, and maxed compression, and LOTS of rpm, like 8800+, possibly. But those heads won;t do it as easily as a spread port head. If everyone else is using a spread port head, you will likely need a spread port head to compete. Could you run with some of the guys, and even beat some with conventional heads, absolutely. But, unless you don;t care if your middle of the pack, some guys don;t have to be top dog, then you will need the spread ports.

Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com

I don't plan to race for a tie. I race to win!!!! and I don't play well with others if you know what i mean!! lol. The bottom line i'm trying to figure out is, spread port is the way to go to make more torque and hp, but with my limit of 1 carb would the RFD edelbrock be equal to a 14 or 18* head? The add from RFD doesn't say they heads make 1200hp. to many things to consider, but flow #'s say it could support up to 1200hp.
Of course it would be cheaper because everything i have is for conventional heads. ie pistons, intake, rockers etc. but i'm starting a new motor and seriously thinking about steping up to spread port heads.
Now where do i start? Dart, Brodix, Sonny's, RFD, Dynoflo, SVR?? all good places, but it cost too much not to get it right the first time.
Thanks again for your help!!
Rabbit

Take the name Dynflow out of that " all good places" a locals dragster I drive here and there had a 585 dart big chief motor and also had a 565 brodix big duke motor. His 565 with dukes walks all over the 585 with the chiefs they are a close motor. IMO you need to go atleast 18 degree to make the power you want without spending a ton to do so. I currently run a bmf conv head on my 582 it'd make over 1000 on any dyno but if I had a 18 head it'd make 1100 easy.

That's pretty stong for a 522!!! I had a 548, WP heads done by RFD that made 858 @ 7400. I need to step up to the 1050+ range to be more competitive. And it's hard to do with 23* heads. I'm interested in big duke or big chief heads/ parts / 632 parts if anybody has some please let me know!!

Some great info from you guys and i appreciate it!! :D please keep the info up on the debate about brodix vs dart. :idea: You dyno guys are worth a million $ to us!!! i just need to start shopping on racing junk soon and find some good deals!! :wink:

Thanks
Rabbit

just look at texas pro stock, .. 1200 hp +, .. the trick isn't just the head
it takes a very well ported intake too.

But everyone here seems to be right, .. to make the same power
and compete in a class where everyone else is using big chief stuff
you need to at least use the same stuff they are.
dosn't RFD make some killer 11* head?
w

David,

You might check what version of the RFD / Victor head that was, ..
we / I build 4 different versions at this point, ..

It's likely it was a 2.35" valve version as the 2.4" version has been confirmed by several engine shops to flow as well as the -3 at high lift and out flow it in mid lift. But we know peak flow numbers aren't everything.

Comparable engine builds by several builders show the RFD to make slightly more power and better average power.
These are on typical bracket builds, .. not builds with 200+ dyno pulls
and fully ported intakes max effort stuff. I build a different head for that.

I have a new version for 598 - 632" that is going to surprise everyone, ..

back to the original post, .. I think if you're running in a class where everyone
is using a big chief style spread port head, .. you have to do the same.
Even though I build conventional heads that can make 1200 on
high end builds, .. the big chief will still make more power
when the same effort and money is spent.

now reduce the "effort" of the build to something the average guy can do,
and it'll be easier to make 1200+ with the big chief.

Curtis

Conventional style heads
 

Hammertime, have you been happy with the bmf heads and are they giving you the power you expected? Would you buy them knowing what you know now? I'm running 2x's non-ported and wanting to step up although I need a budget price :?:

My suggestion is to see about getting the heads you have worked for your application by RFD or a really good Cylinder Head Shop. Won't hurt to call and to check. They really do have some decent potential after someone who knows the head and what it needs gets through working it.

www.raceflowdevelopment.com

Ed

Re: Conventional style heads
 

If I were to build another 582 I'd have BB3 Oval Ports instead of the BMF's. They are a good head but just dont measure up to the Brodix head. They may come close with some more work this winter.

with that being said (and i agree) what do you think is the better head. Big Duke or Big Chief?!? I don't know anybody that runs brodix and maybe that's for a reason :?: Both are used by some of the top name engine builders and Sonny's has a good package deal on Brodix.
And i've also heard of guys running a Pontiac head on a BBC???

with that being said (and i agree) what do you think is the better head. Big Duke or Big Chief?!? I don't know anybody that runs brodix and maybe that's for a reason :?: Both are used by some of the top name engine builders and Sonny's has a good package deal on Brodix.
And i've also heard of guys running a Pontiac head on a BBC???[/quote]



As they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder), Same way with heads. some guys can just butcher the crap of it and say it's the best. My opinion and I won't hesatate. Go to Curtis!!!,. He did my 18* Big dukes and they kick the snought of the sonnys 14* stuff my boss had. I have a cast intake, wet sump, 1 carb, and my boss had sonnys 14*darts, sheetmetal, dry sumpand a bigger cam. I make the same power on 15ci less and at the same rpm. Don't get me wrong there are others besides Curtis BUT he has many testamonials on here and its ALL positive.

David,

what bmf's do you have?, .. I can make the 385's flow about 460 with
an intake valve change and a little work, .
just did a set for Chris Uratchko that made a solid 1100 hp n/a single 4

what size engine do you have?

Rabbit,

the choice of heads has to do with several things, ..
if it's 18* I'd either use the Brodix 1803 casting or the new and VERY nice big victor as a base for porting, ..
if it's an all out effort then my 11* big chief can't be beat.

So their really isn't a "better head" per say, .. it has to do with
choosing a raw casting to build on based on the desired end result.

Roumors regarding one casting being better then the other, . truth is
most are good, and every one has it's own little issues.
Darts big chief castings are very good, but require a bunch of machine work
to be "race worthy", .. but that's why I own cnc machines, .. I use their 14* and 11* castings.
The Brodix castings are nice but some don't have the power potential, ..
but the 1803 is a nice part.

Edelbrock now has their own "big chief" 18* they call the Big Victor.
It's part of their "pro port" series of castings designed for
professional cnc shops. It's a VERY nice casting, strong, ..
everything in the right place and they are hipped.
The rocker layout is also what I would consider one of the best
for spread port style heads.

Within those castings we have several CnC port programs depending
on the application, I only custom cut parts.

whoever you end up choosing as your cylinder head guy, .. it's likely they
will have their own favorite.

hope this helps, ..

Curtis

Hammer, if you have the BMF 385s or 405's I'd be interested in buying them if you're wanting to upgrade to the brodix heads. What do you say?

I've been tempted to sell them for last 6 months, my problem is this the jesel pro series rockers would have to be part of the deal being they will not fit the brodix heads and the sniper intake also wouldnt work . Most people want to buy just the heads and not the rockers & intake also with them.

I understand, by the time you add those items, there probably ain't much $ difference than buying new brodix.

There is and isnt. I'd have to buy everything over which id like to do and spend the extra $$ for the brodix, but all that work for what may turn into a tenth.

obsessedtruck and curtis. THANKS FOR YOUR HELP!!

I bought a complete set of 18* big chiefs w/ ti. valves, ti retainers, t & d rockers, dart intake, pistons, crane 7/4 swap cam.
we'll see how well it works!